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Post by monkeypenguin on Aug 6, 2010 10:58:26 GMT -6
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Post by razz on Aug 6, 2010 15:37:43 GMT -6
Yep, Shocklines and Horror Drive-In forums have looooong threads on this upcoming disaster!!!
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Post by markgunnells on Aug 6, 2010 17:07:36 GMT -6
This makes me very sad. I am a long-time lover of the mass market paperback. And Leisure was one of the last horror-based mmpb publishers out there. I'm going to go pout now.
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Post by Scott Tyson on Aug 6, 2010 18:50:20 GMT -6
Yeah, not great news. But as sales dwindle, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
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swa
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Posts: 112
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Post by swa on Aug 6, 2010 20:19:27 GMT -6
See, I don't know how to take this, but "disaster" isn't what I'd call it.
For the readers of books, you know, the things with paper between two covers, I think this is good. The competition just got greater for fewer slots. The cream has to rise to the top now.
For the readers of ebooks, I think disaster might be appropriate. Yes, the major publishers are starting to put books out in this format, but this is going to open a whole can of beans. There's going to be a lot of people who don't work there way up and just start publishing. I honestly think this is going to be a problem...it's going to get the reputation POD books did. Bunch of wannabes that no longer think they need to learn the right way to write. They don't have that gatekeeper.
For writers, this is a bummer. A market taken away is never good news.
For the publishers of hard and softcovers on this board, this is a boon. They're going to be getting a crack at people they'd never imagined before.
For the epublishers on this board, it's a short-term boon. It gives them credibility. But how they play out the next 18-24 months is going to be crucial. Like I said, this has opened a mudslide of crap that now has no gatekeeper...pardon the mixing of metaphors. The publishers that can distinguish themselves early have a huge advantage on the rest of the field.
My thought is in five years, Amazon's generous epublishing rates will be gone. Too many hacks trying to take advantage of it while people who know what makes a good book will still find the good books.
Or, I've drank a huge amount of tequilla and need my stomach pumped.
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Post by gordrollo on Aug 6, 2010 22:56:43 GMT -6
I spoke with Don D'Auria a few times today and I'm not a happy camper. As of now my VALLEY OF THE SCARECROW book will only be available as an ebook. It's a september release and therefore no longer coming out in mass market paperback. There should be a trade papeback version released in 2011 but they have't figured out a publishing schedule yet. All the Leisure horror books are affected by this and I'm not sure what to think about it all yet. I'm sad and more than a little bit pissed off right now, but I don't know enough about ebook sales and trade paperback sales and distribution to talk about it with any accuracy. Maybe this will be a good move. I certaily hope so, but for now we'll all have to wait and see.
I personally am not a fan of ebooks and likely never will be. Time will tell.
Gord
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Post by monkeypenguin on Aug 7, 2010 0:45:22 GMT -6
Gord, hope it works out. Can't imagine the turmoil.
Sam, I have to disagree with you. Follow the money. Dorchester, unless they offer 70% royalties on their e-books, will officially be screwing their authors. How many have e-book rights built into their contracts? In Gord's case, I'm sure e-books was part of his deal that just became his entire deal. Will they be gracious and up the e-book royalties thanks to their game change? Or will they bait-and-switch? Based on their money issues, I'm willing to bet the latter.
Gatekeepers are starting to mean shit right now. Hate to say it, but money talks and bullshit walks. 70% talks a helluva lot more than 6-8%. If they don't match it, what's the point in publishing with them? Exactly, there is none. Plus, gatekeepers haven't exactly kept shitty books from being published the last twenty years or so. The business model is changing, whether we like it or not. The reader is more a gatekeeper now than ever.
What happened today was the small press openings for unknown and newbie writers just shrank tenfold. You're right Sam, in that a lot of small press pubs will benefit from the exodus from Leisure that may start soon. But guys like us without much of a name might get our ass kicked to the curb. Time will tell.
In the long run, I don't think it's any different than Leisure declaring bankruptcy. Based on their financial difficulties, that's basically what happened. Now they're in salvage mode and trying to avert death. Sadly, a lot of their authors may be hurt as a result of their "fast" planning.
Interesting times.
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Post by michaelmcbride on Aug 7, 2010 6:27:42 GMT -6
Gord: You should have heard from Don first. Finding out from another source is ridiculous. I'm sorry you and SCARECROW are getting screwed in the process, but look at it this way: You're an established mass market author with demonstrable sales figures. The world is now open to you. Get your agent out there pounding the pavement. Bigger and better opportunities await. ;D Erik: Which Leisure authors aren't already working in the specialty press? Rollo, Strand, Ketchum, Malfi, Keene, Kenyon, Smith, Lee, etc... These guys are already here. Maybe some of them will be submitting more material, but do you really think that after moving tens of thousands of copies with significantly larger advances, they'll be content to settle for the collector's market exclusively? I don't think this is as catastrophic as you envision it. Besides, if there's one thing that I--and all of the authors listed above--know from experience, the specialty press will take a chance on lesser-known talent if the work is exceptional. So, write some exceptional books and you have no worries.
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Post by bloodlettingpress on Aug 7, 2010 10:31:25 GMT -6
The writing has been on the wall for Dorchester for some time now. I quite honestly don't know how they've lasted this long. The distribution on books has been broke for many years, which is one of the reasons that I've never gone that rout. How can you possible run a business where the businesses selling your product when they can order as many of your product as they like and don't pay for them until they sell?
For example: A distributor like Baker & Taylor may order 500 copies of your titles to distribute to bookstores. You produced those titles and ship them to them at a 55% discount and free shipping. Now you might think that these books are sold but in fact they are not. Those 500 copies may likely sit on the bookstore shelves for three months and then get shipped back to you with no payment and a $1 charge per book for shipping them back to you. So instead of making thousands of dollars on the sale of a title you just lost thousands.
Now you can set up your distribution to where you do not accept returns but in doing so you can just forget about getting any orders from distributors.
This is why digital will win, not because folks prefer it, but because it puts the titles back into the hands of those who created it the title.
This is great news for the small press, particularly those who distribute their own titles. Hardcover limited editions will still have a strong following and likely gain in popularity similar to the vinyl record movement.
Rest assured there are some great small press horror publishers out there that have been diligent about print runs and their product...they will only come out of this stronger and better able to serve the needs of the readers and authors.
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jwar
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Posts: 145
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Post by jwar on Aug 7, 2010 13:54:27 GMT -6
I used to care but anymore I'm all for digital. It saves paper, it gives the author more money (theoretically), and it means I don't have 500 more paperbacks floating around on my shelf. Sounds like a win, win to me.
The only downfall is that the books aren't exactly immortalized like they would be with some paperbacks. I've seen some busted ass books that have been a 100 + years old. Who knows where technology will be in that long?
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Post by markgunnells on Aug 7, 2010 14:37:16 GMT -6
I don't mind ebooks, I don't have a reader but I've downloaded a few directly to my computer, but I will admit, I don't enjoy reading off a screen as much as the page. I konw it shouldn't matter, and yet somehow it does to me. Also speaking as a writer, I like having something to physically put on my vanity shelf. But I do think e-books are great at keeping the short story and novella alive, and I think e-books and actual physical books are a great compliment to each other.
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Post by jackstaynes on Aug 9, 2010 12:44:04 GMT -6
I think this blows monkeys. Working in a bookstore I get to see what sells and what doesn't and I get to see how the right people doing the right job can make a fucking huge difference, and the wrong motherfuckers doing the same shit can just fuck it all right to hell and back. I hate the e-books, I think they is stupid and I ain't got no use for em. Not that that matters cause ain't no fucker gonna listen to me cause plenty of folks out there like em and folks is making money and selling books so it's all gravy for them folks. But I'll say that over the last 5 or 6 years I've shifted a good several hundred Dorchester paperbacks though my bricks and mortars store. You could say that with ebooks for their titles there is no longer need people like me... and I'll tell you to go fuck yourself, cause without me none of them books would have sold over here cause I fucking introduced them fucks to these fucks. I'd say that they should have spent more time trying to get their books into stores than spending money on market research and shit like that. I think the ebook route is the lazy route for the quick buck. Sure it cuts out the middle man when you don't rely on people having to sell the book and you don't have to worry about returns and all that shit but when you break it right down to the basics of what it's all about, the ethics of it are all wrong. It's not progress or the technology of a new era to do this shit. I'm sick of fucks telling me it's great for the enviroment and it gives the authors more money and all that other bullshit. A lot of mistakes have been made in the name of progress but because the folks with all the power were behind the decisions shit got changed and now you is stuck with it. If Dorchester is gonna tank the ppb line in favour of ebooks, then fuck em, they know what they wanna do and ain't fuck all gonna change that which is a shame cause they had put out some great books which I ain't never gonna get a chance to read now.
I'm getting sick and fucking tired of the whole fucking book related business now to be honest. On a side note I'm gonna air that shit right now, if you don't wanna read it then fuck ya, skip the thread and carry on.
Couple of years ago, folks might recal that on some other board The Haunt or the Mall whatever the fuck, I talked shit about the changes my company were making in getting rid of my baker & taylor ties and we were no longer gonna be supplied direct from publishers and all our books were gonna go to a central warehouse and blah blah fucking blady blah, long story short, there were a whole bunch of changes made to the company ...'for the good of the book business' and staff were laid off all with the thin veil of deceit of it being for the best. The fuckhead that made all these major changes was on some fucked up stupid salary of something like £275,000 and he gave himself a fucking £300,000 bonus of someshit, then this January thet got rid of him cause they realised that the changes he made actually fucked the company in the ass. Add to that the fact that many of the changes he made cost so much fucking money that we are now stuck with them. So it goes to show that a little man like me who's been in the game for a few years can recognise a mistake when I sees one even when big cheeses think it's all for the good of the business and all that shit. Ain't no one looking out for your best interests, ain't no one even looking out for what is best for books, every fuck is in it for themselves and you is on your own.
So far as I'm concerned ebooks ain't got no place in the small press publishing business either, by definition it goes against what it stands for. I always thought it was small press cause it was limited to a selected few, not small cause folks didn't know about it. I'm gonna be more wary from now on about what I'm actually buying. When XXXXXX sell me something limited to x copies for x amount of money and then some other dude gets the same story for like 5 bucks, then I think that is a piss take. Then they turn round and tell me that authors need to eat and all that jazz... no disrespect to the authors cause so far as I'm concerned you guys is the stars of the show and ya'll deserve to be rich and shit but when shit like this happens then the animal that was small press is changing.
See for instance I was looking at Dorchesters line-up and I seen this for Jan next year. THE WOMAN by Jack Ketchum and Lucky McKee. Now speaking for myself, I think that reeks of piss cause I bought into the Infernal House line and just got myself another Darkness on the Edge of Town situation, except even worse cause the Infernal House edition ain't even out yet and I don't know if Ketchum is gonna do a different ending or whatever. Now I know it ain't an ebook, although I'm guessing now it will be, but the thread is about dorechester and whatnot so I thought I'd get that out there. Now nothing against Larry or Infernal House cause I know he's gonna put out a great book, and nothing against Jack Ketchum cause I'm guessing like Brian Keene the fella's gotta eat right? I'm just saying that is it too much to ask that for $175 you can get yourself something limited? Maybe there should be a line drwan up somewhere between limited edition and limited story. And lets not even get me started on Ed Lee and the Innswich Horror by Deadite Press.
Anyways, I recons I've said enough to ruffle a few feathers, but if you don't get it out it'll fester and that ain't good so, I consider myself purged. Ahhhhhhh
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Post by geneoneill on Aug 9, 2010 13:38:45 GMT -6
Every time a publisher makes a major decision like this one, it rumbles along the line affecting numbers of people, some times in ways not anticipated. I feel for everyone affected adversely. But I'm hoping this Leisure decision might be good for some folks--hopefully the small press. But I have no illusions when someone like Leisure says this will be *good* for me. As a little ragamuffin in the ghetto, I grew up knowing exactly what some *rich* person meant when they said they only had my best interests in mind. Uh-huh. Guard your ass. Gene
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jwar
Full Member
Posts: 145
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Post by jwar on Aug 9, 2010 14:42:22 GMT -6
I think this blows monkeys. Working in a bookstore I get to see what sells and what doesn't and I get to see how the right people doing the right job can make a fucking huge difference, and the wrong motherfuckers doing the same shit can just fuck it all right to hell and back. I hate the e-books, I think they is stupid and I ain't got no use for em. Not that that matters cause ain't no fucker gonna listen to me cause plenty of folks out there like em and folks is making money and selling books so it's all gravy for them folks. But I'll say that over the last 5 or 6 years I've shifted a good several hundred Dorchester paperbacks though my bricks and mortars store. You could say that with ebooks for their titles there is no longer need people like me... and I'll tell you to go fuck yourself, cause without me none of them books would have sold over here cause I fucking introduced them fucks to these fucks. I'd say that they should have spent more time trying to get their books into stores than spending money on market research and shit like that. I think the ebook route is the lazy route for the quick buck. Sure it cuts out the middle man when you don't rely on people having to sell the book and you don't have to worry about returns and all that shit but when you break it right down to the basics of what it's all about, the ethics of it are all wrong. It's not progress or the technology of a new era to do this shit. I'm sick of fucks telling me it's great for the enviroment and it gives the authors more money and all that other bullshit. A lot of mistakes have been made in the name of progress but because the folks with all the power were behind the decisions shit got changed and now you is stuck with it. If Dorchester is gonna tank the ppb line in favour of ebooks, then fuck em, they know what they wanna do and ain't fuck all gonna change that which is a shame cause they had put out some great books which I ain't never gonna get a chance to read now. I'm getting sick and fucking tired of the whole fucking book related business now to be honest. On a side note I'm gonna air that shit right now, if you don't wanna read it then fuck ya, skip the thread and carry on. Couple of years ago, folks might recal that on some other board The Haunt or the Mall whatever the fuck, I talked shit about the changes my company were making in getting rid of my baker & taylor ties and we were no longer gonna be supplied direct from publishers and all our books were gonna go to a central warehouse and blah blah fucking blady blah, long story short, there were a whole bunch of changes made to the company ...'for the good of the book business' and staff were laid off all with the thin veil of deceit of it being for the best. The fuckhead that made all these major changes was on some fucked up stupid salary of something like £275,000 and he gave himself a fucking £300,000 bonus of someshit, then this January thet got rid of him cause they realised that the changes he made actually fucked the company in the ass. Add to that the fact that many of the changes he made cost so much fucking money that we are now stuck with them. So it goes to show that a little man like me who's been in the game for a few years can recognise a mistake when I sees one even when big cheeses think it's all for the good of the business and all that shit. Ain't no one looking out for your best interests, ain't no one even looking out for what is best for books, every fuck is in it for themselves and you is on your own. So far as I'm concerned ebooks ain't got no place in the small press publishing business either, by definition it goes against what it stands for. I always thought it was small press cause it was limited to a selected few, not small cause folks didn't know about it. I'm gonna be more wary from now on about what I'm actually buying. When XXXXXX sell me something limited to x copies for x amount of money and then some other dude gets the same story for like 5 bucks, then I think that is a piss take. Then they turn round and tell me that authors need to eat and all that jazz... no disrespect to the authors cause so far as I'm concerned you guys is the stars of the show and ya'll deserve to be rich and shit but when shit like this happens then the animal that was small press is changing. See for instance I was looking at Dorchesters line-up and I seen this for Jan next year. THE WOMAN by Jack Ketchum and Lucky McKee. Now speaking for myself, I think that reeks of piss cause I bought into the Infernal House line and just got myself another Darkness on the Edge of Town situation, except even worse cause the Infernal House edition ain't even out yet and I don't know if Ketchum is gonna do a different ending or whatever. Now I know it ain't an ebook, although I'm guessing now it will be, but the thread is about dorechester and whatnot so I thought I'd get that out there. Now nothing against Larry or Infernal House cause I know he's gonna put out a great book, and nothing against Jack Ketchum cause I'm guessing like Brian Keene the fella's gotta eat right? I'm just saying that is it too much to ask that for $175 you can get yourself something limited? Maybe there should be a line drwan up somewhere between limited edition and limited story. And lets not even get me started on Ed Lee and the Innswich Horror by Deadite Press. Anyways, I recons I've said enough to ruffle a few feathers, but if you don't get it out it'll fester and that ain't good so, I consider myself purged. Ahhhhhhh Jack, Passionate post as always. I enjoy reading your thoughts on subjects like these. I do however have to disagree somewhat. I think that Limited Edition is exactly what it states. An edition that is limited. Now I don't know if any presses are making claims that their edition is only limited to a HC. I have never seen them advertised this way. So it's fair to assume that a lot of Limited Editions will probably at some point in time be re-published or released simultaneously with a paperback. Why? Simple, because the authors are trying to make as much money as possible. I can't blame them for that. I do though feel sometimes that publishers are a bit deceptive in their information. Sometimes I find myself fuming because I just dropped 60 bucks on a Limited and find out a paperback is being released (sometimes sooner than the Limited!). This makes me weary of small press at times, but it's not their fault that I'm an over zealous shopper. If I wanted to, I could wait. Yea I might miss out on the book in the first hand market, but as I'm coming to find out. There isn't really a second hand market for small press books. Or very few of them. So I LOL when I see claims that my books will "double" in value over time. Hopefully what I'm saying is making sense Jack. I agree with you in a sense but at the same time I don't. I have to have my own opinion right? Otherwise I'd be some fanboy jerkoff. Ok I can't lie. I am a fanboy jerkoff. On a related note. I made a similar rant about the quality of books being release lately on a different message board. I've been finding that a lot of the books I've been reading are not worth the hefty price tag. They are nicely produced and all but the writing does not justify the price sometimes. But my opinion is subjective of course, and should only be viewed as my opinion. For ever crap book I've read, I've probably read 10 others that were excellent and made up for it. Now to the main topic. Ebooks. I have resigned to the fact that they will exist. I have accepted them and embraced them. Why? Because it has occurred to me that (apparently) as a consumer, my sole sale is not enough to base the continued production of mmpb's. If so many people buy these books, then why are the book stores always over flowing with them? I know I personally do not buy a lot of brand new mmpb's. Why would I? They are over priced and poorly made. I can wait like a month or two and someone will have sold what I'm looking for to Half Priced Books. Ebooks, regardless of how any of us feel, are an absolute "in" thing right now. They sell well. The readers sell well. People fucking LOVE them. It's the perfect thing to compliment their Starbucks and McDonald's lifestyle. It's the hipster thing to have. Shit I bought a Nook about 6 months back or so. You know how many books I've read on that thing? Zero. Why did I buy it then? I don't fucking know. I figure eventually I'll have to use it and I might as well have one now. I hate ebooks and I love them. Like I said, I'll read my favorite author's works on anything. It doesn't matter.
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Post by markgunnells on Aug 9, 2010 15:59:29 GMT -6
I'm guessing Jack will not be buying my digital Halloween chappy. ;D
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